AILSA CHANG, HOST:
We're continuing our Black History Month series, looking back at Black culture in 2016. And today, we're going to focus on film and television with someone who is a bit of an expert on this, Ava DuVernay. In 2016, she premiered her Oscar-nominated documentary "13th," a film about racial inequality and the U.S. prison system.
(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "13TH")
JELANI COBB: The 13th Amendment loophole was immediately exploited.
MICHELLE ALEXANDER: After the Civil War, African Americans were arrested en masse. It was our nation's first prison boom.
CHANG: That same year, the show "Queen Sugar" came out. DuVernay created and produced this series about three Black siblings navigating trauma and a complicated family in Louisiana.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "QUEEN SUGAR")
GLYNN TURMAN: (As Ernest Bordelon) To my children, I bequeath 800 acres, equally. Out of every place in this whole world, this land bears our name.
CHANG: Filmmaker Ava DuVernay joins us now. It is so great having you back on the show again.
AVA DUVERNAY: So happy to be back. Thanks for having me.
CHANG: Well, thanks for being here. So in preparing for this interview, I came upon a November 2016 story on Ebony magazine's website that asked this question - is 2016 the best year ever for Black cinema? What do you think? Was it?
DUVERNAY: I won't say that it was the best year ever, but it was a very good time, especially when we compare it to what's happening now. We could see ourselves in many different forms and facets in 2016. We know that that's receded.
CHANG: Yeah.
DUVERNAY: But certainly, if you're a student of the Black cinematic canon, we know that there have been, you know, much more vibrant and full-bodied, full-throated times before then. But...
CHANG: Oh, totally.
DUVERNAY: ...2016 was a good year.
CHANG: I mean, can we just name a few of the films that came out in 2016? There was Barry Jenkins' movie "Moonlight," which won the Oscar for best picture.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MOONLIGHT")
MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Juan) Fell that right there? You in the middle of the world, man.
CHANG: There were a number of notable documentaries, not just yours, "13th," but also "O.J.: Made In America" and "I Am Not Your Negro," which was inspired by the writings of James Baldwin.
(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "I AM NOT YOUR NEGRO")
JAMES BALDWIN: The future of the Negro in this country is precisely as bright or as dark as the future of the country.
CHANG: There was "Fences," the adaptation of August Wilson's play.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "FENCES")
DENZEL WASHINGTON: (As Troy Maxson) It's not easy for me to admit that I've been standing in the same place for 18 years.
VIOLA DAVIS: (As Rose Maxson) Well, I've been standing with you.
CHANG: So let me ask you - if you could just sort of transport your mind back to that year 10 years ago - did it feel like to you, for whatever reason, that Hollywood in 2016 was just taking more of a genuine interest in a lot of aspects of Black life?
DUVERNAY: The answer would be no. And yet it doesn't mean that there were not wonderful things being made. What I like to focus on is the access to opportunity that was seized by Black artists in that moment. And that opportunity not coming from some kind of, you know, generous, charitable kind of recognition of humanity by Hollywood, but really coming from the rise of streamers, the consolidation of studios...
CHANG: Oh.
DUVERNAY: ...That even started at that time, new avenues of distribution...
CHANG: Yeah.
DUVERNAY: ...The ease with which filmmakers were able to make work with digital filmmaking tools. There were a lot of layers to what was happening in 2016, and the result was more work, but certainly, we shouldn't rest it at the feet of Hollywood's sudden interest in Blackness.
CHANG: Right. OK, so so many factors were at work to create just the luminous list of beautiful work being done in 2016. I want to talk about one element, your documentary, "13th." It's about the disproportionate impact that mass incarceration has had on Black people. And I wonder, do you feel that the conversation around mass incarceration is advancing? I ask that because there was another documentary last year called "The Alabama Solution," about the prison system in Alabama, and it's been nominated for an Oscar this year. And I'm just curious - what does it feel like to see other filmmakers paying attention to the same set of issues a decade later? Is the conversation shifting?
DUVERNAY: I think, well, that's a beautiful film and made by fantastic filmmakers. And "13th" wasn't the first time that these things had been explored...
CHANG: Sure.
DUVERNAY: ...In film. But I think, you know, generally, now, when we think about mass incarceration, I do hear people talking about it. You're talking about mass incarceration whenever you talk about ICE detention camps.
CHANG: Yeah.
DUVERNAY: This is something that we touched on briefly in 2016 in "13th," that that was coming, and 10 years later, it is here. And so to trace a direct line between the systems and processes of incarcerating people and the labor and what's extracted from that and the reasons why these are centers of profit, there's a direct line between then and now. And I'm bolstered by people making that connection to what they see on TV every night right now.
CHANG: I also want to talk about just TV in 2016. There was your show, "Queen Sugar," also Donald Glover's "Atlanta," Issa Rae's "Insecure."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "INSECURE")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Is this what you always wanted to do?
ISSA RAE: (As Issa Dee) No. But I got this job after college, and it fit my interest at the time.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Are you single?
RAE: (As Issa Dee) I don't think that's appropriate.
CHANG: When you take stock of all these different TV shows back in 2016, including your show, do you think these shows were breaking new ground back then?
DUVERNAY: I wouldn't say breaking new ground. I mean, when we look at the history of television, you know, we had, you know, the great Black drama, the Black family drama. I think the thing about it was that these were all on the air at the same time and that across the dial...
CHANG: Yeah.
DUVERNAY: ...Whether it was on a streamer like Netflix, whether it was on a traditional cable like a HBO or on a linear network television, basic cable, across the board. I mean, the thing that was different about 2016 is the different formats, the different ways to see it. And then also, I think the dominance of Black voices in the director's chair, in the writer's chair, in the producer's chair.
CHANG: When you look back on 2016, and I know you've identified several factors that were in play, but what was the broader conversation about Black culture in 2016, at least the way you remember it?
DUVERNAY: I mean, I - there was a moment where opportunity and access met...
CHANG: Yeah.
DUVERNAY: ...The feeling that was bubbling up in artists at the time. You know, we were looking at the leadership of the country at that time. We were looking at the economy at the time. We were looking at, you know, the civil unrest. We were looking at just a whole set, all the puzzle pieces that make up Black American life. And they met with access to tools and opportunity to distribute.
CHANG: Well, I was just going to ask you - you know, 10 years later, when you're looking at Black art today, does it feel like the movement has stalled? What do you think has happened to that movement that you identified back in 2016?
DUVERNAY: No, the movement is still there. Artists are making things. Artists want - have things to say. I'm seeing so many things in the independent space. So I want to make sure that people don't feel like artists and storytellers and creators are asleep at the wheel. All I hear is a fire in people's bellies. The challenge is, how do we get it to the audience, that...
CHANG: Yeah.
DUVERNAY: ...And make that connection? And this is why it's so important to build our own systems in our own image, because the systems of Hollywood are failing and falling. We have to go through these major corporate entities to reach audience. That is what I see as the real challenge here - is pathways to audience. It's not a block to creativity, thank goodness.
CHANG: Thank goodness. Director and producer Ava DuVernay, thank you so much for joining us.
DUVERNAY: Thank you for having me.
(SOUNDBITE OF HIP HOP BEATS' "THE FOOD (INSTRUMENTAL)") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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